fox | the gospel according to Bravissimo

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the gospel according to Bravissimo

First of all: I learned of the wonder that is Bravissimo from

sebastienne, so she gets all the credit for my going in there in the first place. And then they get all the credit for their policy of not using measuring tapes to decide what fits, but bringing things and trying them on you until they can see that they fit. (This was the opposite of the experience I had at Dor-Ne in Silver Spring, which I know some people love, but where I said "This 36E is now too big in the band and actually a little too small in the cup, so I'd like to try on a 34FF, please," and the small Russian martinet who runs the place said "What? No, look at the measuring tape! You are 38! And also, you are wearing that bra wrong, you don't need a different cup size." And I said okay, but if 36 is too big I don't really think 38 is going to fit, and also, if I wore the cups the way you were suggesting, I'd hang out the bottom of them, so can I just -- I'll find it somewhere else, thanks.) And then explaining what it was that didn't fit about the old bra, so that I'd be able to do this for myself in future. HOORAY FOR THEM.

So today I went with

abka to teach her what they taught me, and now I will teach you, too.

The band should be tighter than you think. If you fasten it in front and then turn it around, you should probably have to tug it a little to do up the hooks, and then it should not turn all that easily around your body. (You shouldn't have to hurt yourself, but if you can just pull it away from you and whip it around, it's too big.) It should, in fact, press into your skin, assuming you have any subcutaneous fat at all. Even if you don't! Skin is elastic, right, so it should compress a little bit. Basically, find a size that you think is maybe too tight; try the next size smaller. If you can only fasten that smaller size with a great amount of effort, the original too-tight size is for you. If you can fasten the smaller size with only a sort of minimal effort, try the next size smaller. Repeat ad req. (eta2: Yes!, as reginagiraffe says below, it should fit like this on the outside hook, because between washes and as it is no longer brand-new, it will stretch and you will need the second and third hooks. If the bra only fits this way on the inside hook, it is too big and you should go down a band size.)
- The band should fit right up under your breasts, in the crease between your breasts and your ribs, i.e. right where your breasts reattach to your body. And it should be horizontal around your sides and your back. If the band is higher in the back than in the front, it is too big and the weight of your breasts has pulled the front down. This was the most counterintuitive thing for me to get used to, which is why I mention it here. In order for the band to stay put, it needs to be tighter.
The center gore, the bit between the cups, should lie flat against your sternum. All those people who joke about how they can store things in their bra? They're wearing a much-too-small cup size (and probably a too-big band size, if the bra fits this way without violating #3).
The top of the cup should lie flat against your breast. If it digs in, the cup is too small. If there's a lot of slack, the cup is too big.
Adjust the adjustable straps so that they don't slip off your shoulders but don't dig in, either. If they are at their shortest possible length and still slippy, then this is not the bra for you. Ditto if they're at their longest length and still diggy, although I'm short enough in the torso that this will never happen to me.
(eta: Oh, also: don't forget that cup size is a function of band size, so if you change one, odds are you'll have to change the other. If you're wearing 38C and the cups fit okay but the band is too big, the next thing you try should be 36D. And if the band is still too big, you should try 34DD. So if, to take one hypothetical example, you started out in a 38D and the band was too big and the cup was too small, going down to 34 means you're going up to F (=4D) at a minimum.)

It's just, it's so easy, and having a bra that fits properly is such a miraculous revelation,

abka and I agreed it should be taught in school. OMFG. No joke, if you're wearing a bra that is too big in the band and too small in the cup -- as she was -- it just holds your breasts against your body, right, but too low, and not at all supportively, and argh. Whereas if you have a bra that fits, it holds them up off your ribs and against your chest, and you seriously? look at least ten pounds lighter right there. (Why? Because it makes your waist visible.)

It takes almost no time for the new "this is too tight" sensation to reanalyze itself as the new "comfortable", and your clothes will fit better, and you won't be spending all kinds of time trying to find a graceful way to tug straps and things back into place, and honestly, y'all, there aren't a lot of things I get evangelical about, but it turns out this is one of them. "I know this bra is the right size because I was measured for it" is not the right answer. With all other items of clothing, you can tell if they fit by the way they look and feel, right? I don't know why we so seldom learn what "this bra fits" looks and feels like, but we should. The back shouldn't ride up. The gore should sit against your sternum. Ladies, it will change your life. Trust me.

(see also post titled "can i get an amen?" later this month.)

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Wait, Bravissimo has a store near here?

No, but wouldn't it be great if they opened one? (Memo to Bravissimo: make the DC area the location for your first store in the US, please.) We went to Nordstrom at Tyson's. It's just that I ~~am their loyal minion~~ believe so fervently in their fitting methods. There was a tape measure in the fitting room at Nordstrom, but did we care? We sure didn't.

wow, umm, okay. i can't imagine having a band fit that tightly. half my bras don't even *have* cups, just the elastic band, and are the pull-over-your-head sort.

i guess a visit to victoria's secret is in order....

(is this limited to women of specific size ranges? i'm a 34b or thereabouts, or a size "small", or at least so i thought....)

I also gave up on Victoria's Secret because (a) they don't have anything bigger than DD and (b) their bras are quite stretchy and minimally-supportive anyway. But to actually answer your question, no, it's not that this is all true of some women and not others -- but the differences between a well-fitting and an ill-fitting bra are probably exponentially greater at bigger cup sizes. I've known smaller-breasted women who said they frankly wore the bra more for the insulation than the support; in that case, I guess it wouldn't matter much whether it fit snugly or not. But if you can wiggle around in a 34B, then (without ever having laid eyes on you, of course, so, grain of salt^100) I'd guess 30-C-ish, personally. I don't think of 34 as especially small (said the size M in 32FF).

Yeah--if you're a 32B wearing a 34A, it's probably not going to make a huge difference, unless your breasts need a lot of support. Me, I wear them mostly for the padding, but I'm an A cup. :) But for bigger sizes it can definitely make a HUGE (and SO much more flattering) difference.

Everything darthfox wrote here is true for all women, for all bras. The band should be skin-tight, the gore should be completely flat against your breastbone, and the top of the cup should neither gap nor press - it should be flush against your breast. It can take a lot of trying bras on to find the right one.

Also, Victoria's Secret is crappy unless you are *exactly* the shape they make bras for and no other. Plus the quality of the bras is not that high. VS's success is mostly the marketing and not the product.

Also, what giraffe said below: it should be skin-tight at the first or second hook; it should be too tight at the third hook, because once it stretches out a little, you'll need to make it tighter.

hm. i think i may be the shape that vs makes bras for, mostly b/c the curve of their underwires actually matches the curve under my breasts, without poking me anywhere. and they're cheap (well, on sale, which seems to be usually), colorful, and 100% cotton; i have some i've had for a good ten years that are not worn out. this is basically all i generally ask of any garment...

i will have to check into the smaller band sizes thing, though.

10 YEARS?? I've always been taught that bras should be replaced every 6-9 months! eep!

they're not ones i wear very often :)

I don't know why we so seldom learn what "this bra fits" looks and feels like, but we should.

Probably because it doesn't matter if you are small enough, and enough people are small enough for long enough that women in general have no idea how a bra is supposed to fit.

Yay for finding bras that fit (and how best they do).

It wasn't until 2004 that I finally learned this myself (and I started wearing bras ridiculously young). My favorite store of the moment is Frederick's of Hollywood because of the sizes they stock (currently wearing a 32E that's more of a 30 band comparatively speaking).

Correctly fitting undergarments are such a revelation!

Another hint is, buy a bra that's a little too tight at the largest of the three hooks because bras always stretch a bit within a few wearings/washes and this way you'll have some room to make it tighter.

God, yes.

neotoma and I went to Nordie's at Montgomery Mall yesterday, and it turns out I'm a band size smaller and a cup size larger than I thought I was, and wow, do the new bras feel better.... I tried on about ten bras before we found ones that were good, and I bought two on the spot.

amen, sister!

It's not just the making you look better thing, or the "hey, no straps digging in!" thing, either.

I used to get severe breast pain the week before my period. When my bras fit well, I get very little breast pain the week before my period -- it's not _nonexistent_, but it's so much better than it was before.

I find this so fucking hard and this post so reassuring, because that whole rule about adding 4/5 inches to your rib cage measurement to get to your band size - what resemblance does that bear to any kind of reality? Does that actually COME FROM anywhere, because that kind of band size is ridiculously too big when I try it on. I need new bras but that's a whole day that will be shot and urgh.

Don't add five inches to anything. If you must use a measuring tape, measure where you want the band to fit, with the tape as tight as you can manage/stand, and round up or down to the nearest even number. AND THEN TREAT THAT AS A PLACE TO BEGIN. Because if you adhere to the measurement you got and the bra doesn't fit, it's not the bra that's wrong, you know?

It doesn't need to take a whole day. With

abka it took maybe, maybe an hour and a half. I'll come with you if you want. It doesn't have to be hard. [tries to say helpful reassuring things]

Oh if Fox is offering to come with you, take her up on it. She is so helpful and efficient. It didn't take much more than an hour and once we told her what we were looking for the saleslady was helpful too.

My backward state doesn't even have a Nordstrom. Do any other stores carry Bravissimo? Halp!

Bravissimo (http://www.bravissimo.com) is a shop, not a brand, and unfortunately their bricks-and-mortar locations are only in the UK (though they do have reasonable prices -- particularly when the dollar is doing better than it is now -- and a good return policy, once you know what you want to order). Other good online-mail-order sites are figleaves.com (http://www.figleaves.com) (free returns! comes with a postage-paid label, even!) and Bare Necessities (http://www.barenecessities.com). I know people who for various reasons order a few different things from such a place, try them on at home, and return the ones that don't work out -- if you can afford the $ up front, that's not a bad way to go, particularly if you're looking for a very difficult size (cups above about FF-G, or bands below about 32 or above 40 in any cup size).

As for other department stores: I understand from comments elsewhere that Dillards is pretty good; I don't think I've got one of those nearby me, so I can't speak to the extent of their selection. Neiman-Marcus has a decent variety (and, surprisingly, prices not unlike everyone else's), but I see that there isn't one of them over your way either. I haven't been impressed by Macy's, but a lot of the ones I've hit have been undergoing renovations, so maybe they're usually better. I haven't tried Lord & Taylor, and I don't go in JC Penney anymore, so I don't know what their selection is like either.

Good luck!

I have gone the route with Bravissimo of ordering many bras and sending back all but the one that fit.

I'm in the UK, so don't know if they are as good about overseas orders, but sending back was very easy - a postage-paid label was supplied, a form to fill in that resembles an order form in reverse to describe what you're sending back, and instructions that don't make you feel at all guilty for doing it!

Even though I heartily support all the good things that have been said about them, I have pretty large breasts and they are also guilty of selling bras with stretchy fabrics that reduce the support to zilch, or cups that mould your breast into an unnatural shape. I've used this method to try out a lot of the fancier styles, but have stuck to one particular 'everyday style' that I love.

Alas, they are just as good about accepting overseas returns, but we overseas customers are responsible for the postage (which is considerable). :-(

You're not wrong about the stretchy and weird-shape cups. That's partly a function of every woman being a different shape, as well, though. I learned (the hard way) that Kalyani, for example, is Not The Brand For Me -- the straps are much too long and the cups come to a strange point and the things are just in general a different shape than I am. :-) Freya, Fantasie, Panache, on the other hand, I will love forever.

I just read your post from the link from Ferrett (like many, I'm sure). I feel like crying now, not kidding. I can't even remember what it feels like to have that middle bit pressing against my sternum, and since I'm wearing a J cup now, there's nothing I can do about it beyond the breast reduction surgery I have scheduled for August.

And Just My Size closed their brick and mortar store (it was only one of two anyway) on my coast, so there's nowhere I can go to try bras on for fit.

Edit: I just measured myself. Working from the Wikipedia chart, I should be a 38o, and that's not counting any forward bulk lost to sag. Pity that size doesn't exist. I think I'm wearing a 44J at the moment.

Aie. I'm sorry things are so rough for you. If it helps, though, note that figleaves.com (http://www.figleaves.com) (and I swear I don't work for them, but I've been very pleased [g]) has decent prices, routine markdowns, free returns, and cup sizes up to JJ in all the band sizes in the thirties. (28G, H or HH in the 40's, 50G, 52G, 54FF, 56FF.) Order for delivery, try on, select, return. Might also try Bare Necessities (http://www.barenecessities.com) (and I don't work for them either), which in the 30's goes up to K.

Good luck!

(re: edit -- forward bulk lost to sag should not be a factor, as the measurement is properly taken wearing a bra that fits you well (or as well as possible under the circumstances). If your rib cage is 38 inches under your breasts, a 44 band will be doing you no favors at all. Likewise, note that in the right-hand column a J cup in a US brand is a vastly different thing than a J cup in a UK brand (which brands tend to be much better in my experience). I'm 32FF at the moment and it has never occurred to me to consider myself an H cup. The JJ's and K's I mention above are on the UK scale. Were you and I on such terms, I would counsel ordering a 38JJ and maybe a 36K from one of the online stores and keeping it if it worked. You may be having surgery in August, but that's still a wee while to be unhappy and uncomfortable.)

I checked out Bare Necessities, and I t6hink I heard angelic choirs overhead. Their sizing page says to measure under your arms rather than under your breasts, but doing the math on that (42" under arms, 38" under breasts, 54" around widest part of breasts) indicates that a 42J American ought to fit, and since the cups on a 44J American are far too small, I'm going to assume they're wrong on this one.

NOw, do I want to spend over $50 for a bra I'll need for two months? Ow.

I've never found the under-arm measurement helpful. If you get 38" under your breasts with a tape measure*, in most brands I wouldn't recommend going much above 40. And if you get 54" around the bust with a bra that fits as well as you can get at the moment, I make that 14 inches, or a UK JJ cup --

-- and you know that the US 44J doesn't work for you, which given the above is not so surprising. But 40JJ or 38K is a place to start; if it was me, and I had the fifty bucks, I'd (knowing what I know about how having a bra that fits can change your life) get one of these (http://www.barenecessities.com/catalog.asp?nxs=31&size=20761&style=&vendor=). On the one hand, you think, is a bra worth fifty bucks? But on the other hand, fifty dollars is a steal for how much more comfortable you'll be (and how much better your clothes will fit, and how much happier you'll end up).

I, er. Might get a little enthusiastic about bras that fit. :->

*the fact that you get a larger measurement under your arms than under your breasts suggests that your breasts are quite full as well as large -- that is, more globe-y than teardrop-y.

I like the looks of this one (http://www.barenecessities.com/Panache-Tango-Pure-Underwire-Balconette-Bra_product_Panache3761_,search,38K.htm) best. Not cos it's the prettiest, but it looks like it'd give good support. This one (http://www.bravissimo.com/products/lingerie/everyday-essentials/panache/balconette-bras/png8-details.aspx?colour=Nude) has possibilities too.

I am really looking to the magical point after surgery where I am healed up enough to go bra shopping. My dream is to be able to walk into Kmart and buy something off the rack (which is something I haven't been able to do since I was a teenager).

err, i have a little different issue with bras. due to an inherited birth defect, my chest indents between my breasts. now i've heard nobody actually has breasts that are perfectly identical but that defect makes it a little more...exaggerated for me. the cups either fit one or the other and never both.

one company i forget the name of had half bra sizes and that's the closest i've ever come to a good fit. didn't fit either right mind you, but having both a little off was better than having one way off.

don't have the money to buy specially fitted. or the money to waste constructing one out of two other bras. but if anybody else has a similar problem and has found a (preferably cost effective) solution, i'm all ears.

That, I don't have a solution for -- but you may be interested in the

bustingout community, whose members have resources far beyond my mere anecdotal experience. Best I can come up with is, have you thought of getting a bra that fits well on one side and too big on the other, and putting a push-up or prosthesis (you know, the padding they sell for women who want to fill out their clothes differently) in the baggier cup?

(I think the comm is a better bet.)

am trying it. if i have to replace seven bras, by golly, i want some that fit right if at all possible. err...yes...was involved in a traffic accident in which all my comfortable stuff burned up. (erm, some yahoo ran a stop sign.)

i don't think the difference really warrants a prosthesis. maybe some padding but my life has enough hassles as it is and i don't want something i have to monkey too much with fitting since i drive expedited freight interstate. when we're in a hurry, we have to leave NOW.

Completely off the top of my head and knowing very little about it, perhaps one of those high-tech gel-pad style prosthetic/chicken fillets for the cup that would be too large?

probably too big. it's not really an issue with the boob size, it's that the boob slides into the hole created by the defect.

This is insanely helpful. I've posted a link on my LJ.

I have a feeling I need to reduce my band size by like two sizes... and this is AFTER I've been measured by at least ten people at three different stores.

Bravissimo is second only to Rigby&Peller in my estimation. R&P's fitters get you right in 2 guesses, usually - I think the original Bravissimo recruited fitters from R&P.

R&P - well, I've blown $200 on a knickers and bra set, but I have 42/44G boobs, which just takes me over the edge of the cheaper options...

I found this via

metonymy, and just want to say that Bravissimo changed my life. I walked in wearing a 36DD and walked out a 32G and my hideous and hated breasticles had become actual BOOBS. It was the happiest day of my life.

Via Fatshionista

This post is AWESOME.

I'm here from the Rotund... and I have a question.

What about if the front gore is not flat (cup size too small) but there is slack at the top (cup size too big)

That's what happens with me, I don't have as much breast tissue up high and the rest.

I think in that case you want a balcony (also called balconette, demi-cup, or in some other way "less" than "full coverage"). The depth of the cup is what's important, so you want to make sure the band is snug enough and the gore lies flat in the middle -- and then find a style of bra that doesn't come up higher than it needs to do in order to get the job done.

(As an illustration of the fact that it's really the band doing the work, though, I will mention that once, in a dress with skinny straps and hanger loops that kept creeping out, I pinned the damn loops together underneath my breasts; got them out of the way and instant shelf bra. Whee!)

Keep the faith! As someone who thought she was a frumpy, lumpy 38DD but turned out to actually be a perky, far more slender-looking 34GG, I know how a well-fitting bra can change your life, and I give all the credit to Bravissimo. In case anyone hasn't spotted them, they now also have two fab videos on their website - one showing an actual fitting, and one quick fitting guide - which are really really useful. They're here. (http://www.bravissimo.com/perfectfit/getting-the-perfect-fit/video.aspx) Worth a look, especially if you can't find someone enlightened enough to drop the tyranny of the tape measure.

Abs

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the gospel according to Bravissimo

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Spread the Bravissimo gospel!