well, i could argue that it is fractionally easier. but i dig that our labial fricatives aren't bilabial the way our other labial consonants are, so the urge to assimilate isn't overwhelming the way it is with impossible, for instance.
[tries to think of other in- words with initial labial fricatives in the stem][comes up with *imfinite and *imvertebrate]
i knew a girl in high school who pronounced [m] labiodentally instead of bilabially. it sounded the same (for ordinary purposes; i suppose a trained phonetician who really cared would concentrate on hearing a difference), but it sure looked strange.
i knew a girl in high school who pronounced [m] labiodentally instead of bilabially. it sounded the same
Okay, you know you're going to have to show me that now because when I attempt it, it comes out way more nasalized than [m] in English (too far in the back of the mouth?) -- or it sounds like I'm four years old and am refusing to let someone shove medicine in my mouth (must.use.teeth.?).
... more nasalized than [m]? which is a nasal consonant? completely orally stopped? no resonance anywhere except in the nasal cavity?
you'll have to try to explain to me what you mean. :-) but as for what the girl in high school did -- get your mouth all set to say [v], and then instead of going "vvvvvv", just hum.
... more nasalized than [m]? which is a nasal consonant? completely orally stopped? no resonance anywhere except in the nasal cavity?
You've heard me speak Portuguese, right? There's pretty much no consonant left, just the nasalized vowel before it, the tongue is totally wrong for English. Damn language interference! But, in the kinds of words you're discussing, they write "n" where we do and "m" where we do (yeah, Latin!). There's a much smaller difference in pronunciation between "m" and "n" in Portuguese (all versions, I believe, but I don't know that much about continental Portuguese) than there is in English. In some cases, the distinction is nonexistent, because the consonant is entirely missing and could be written equally with a tilde over the vowel or with the "m" or "n" -- convention and history having decided which, so that old maps have interesting spellings -- e.g., the airline TAM, which has one consonant and one vowel (and has been renamed "boom" by people who claim it crashes too much). So, the plural of, for example, "imagem" is "imagens," with the difference (besides the "s") being nearly imperceptible. And sounds at the end of words change (including whether an "s" is voiced) based in part on the beginning of the following word -- which I just think is fantastic and makes learning the language difficult, especially for Spanish speakers, who seem never to learn to voice "s". Brazilians are notoriously bad spellers for a reason: when you look at a new word, you know how to pronounce it, but if you hear it, you are likely to be unsure regarding how to spell it. And this is way more information than you need, quite likely way more than you want, so I'll stop now. Lalalala!
As for the girl, wow, that's a lot of work and must have looked strange indeed!
i think that's the difference between the nasal vowel and the oral vowel you're hearing -- not the difference between the nasal vowel and the nasal consonant.
I have now decided that in connected speech it's likely that the word is somewhere between in and im visible. Or at least that this is so for a great number of speakers. Say "I'm invisible" a few times and see what I mean.
i think in rapid speech there's probably a lot more of the labio-dental nasal like that girl in high school used to have instead of [m], actually. :-) a segment i am going to call, until i hear a better suggestion, the "hum-V."
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[tries to think of other in- words with initial labial fricatives in the stem][comes up with *imfinite and *imvertebrate]
i knew a girl in high school who pronounced [m] labiodentally instead of bilabially. it sounded the same (for ordinary purposes; i suppose a trained phonetician who really cared would concentrate on hearing a difference), but it sure looked strange.
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Okay, you know you're going to have to show me that now because when I attempt it, it comes out way more nasalized than [m] in English (too far in the back of the mouth?) -- or it sounds like I'm four years old and am refusing to let someone shove medicine in my mouth (must.use.teeth.?).
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you'll have to try to explain to me what you mean. :-) but as for what the girl in high school did -- get your mouth all set to say [v], and then instead of going "vvvvvv", just hum.
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You've heard me speak Portuguese, right? There's pretty much no consonant left, just the nasalized vowel before it, the tongue is totally wrong for English. Damn language interference! But, in the kinds of words you're discussing, they write "n" where we do and "m" where we do (yeah, Latin!). There's a much smaller difference in pronunciation between "m" and "n" in Portuguese (all versions, I believe, but I don't know that much about continental Portuguese) than there is in English. In some cases, the distinction is nonexistent, because the consonant is entirely missing and could be written equally with a tilde over the vowel or with the "m" or "n" -- convention and history having decided which, so that old maps have interesting spellings -- e.g., the airline TAM, which has one consonant and one vowel (and has been renamed "boom" by people who claim it crashes too much). So, the plural of, for example, "imagem" is "imagens," with the difference (besides the "s") being nearly imperceptible. And sounds at the end of words change (including whether an "s" is voiced) based in part on the beginning of the following word -- which I just think is fantastic and makes learning the language difficult, especially for Spanish speakers, who seem never to learn to voice "s". Brazilians are notoriously bad spellers for a reason: when you look at a new word, you know how to pronounce it, but if you hear it, you are likely to be unsure regarding how to spell it. And this is way more information than you need, quite likely way more than you want, so I'll stop now. Lalalala!
As for the girl, wow, that's a lot of work and must have looked strange indeed!
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yeah, but a nasalized vowel is not more nasal than a nasal consonant. it's just more vocalic.
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