thoughts on the Eighth Doctor

[fox]

So ellen_fremedon and sanj were here last night so we three could watch the movie, and my thoughts on the Eighth Doctor (and the, what, Fourth Master?) are pretty much as follows:

Dear god.

That's it in a nutshell.  More details when I need to avoid work.

Comments

[datlowen.livejournal.com]

Don't quote me on this, but I think that's just the third Master.

[datlowen.livejournal.com]

Well, technically the 14th, but it's only the third that we meet.

[darthfox.livejournal.com]

I was counting back from the fact that the Master just went from the fifth (Derek Jacobi) to the sixth (whatshisname; but it has been pointed out that "Mister Saxon" is an anagram of "Master no. six") -- so poss. actually the 18th and 19th, given the running-out-of-lives whatnot? if this one was the 14th. But whatever. We must not have seen the fourth, then.

[datlowen.livejournal.com]

I actually haven't seen any of Season Three, so I don't know anything about it. I really need to get on that, I guess.

ellen_fremedon will actually know better than I; her knowledge of the original series is nearly encyclopedic. But I think there's only the one that the Third Doctor faced (Delgado?), and the burned-out hulk from "The Deadly Assassin" and "The Keeper of Traken" who becomes the--

You know, if I learned how to count, this would be easier. The burned-out hulk becomes the fourteenth Master, because he's the first Master post-the usual slate of regenerations (12 regenerations plus an original incarnation=13). So then the one in the movie is the Fifteenth Master.

Regardless that would still leave the present one as the fifth we know. There may be a pre-Delgado Master that I'm not remembering or never knew, or you may be right that there's one we just never met. (Or maybe there's a semi-canonical one we meet only in the novels.)

[ellen-fremedon.livejournal.com]

darthfox:
Nick is trying to help me sort out which Master is which. [points]
ellen_fremedon:
I saw, yes.
ellen_fremedon:
I think Nick got it right in his last post.
ellen_fremedon:
Rotting Master is 13.
ellen_fremedon:
And he may or may not be the same incarnation as Delgado Master.
ellen_fremedon:
And then Ainley Master, in Tremas's body, is 14.
ellen_fremedon:
Who is presumably the one we saw exterminated at the beginning of the movie.
ellen_fremedon:
Though we don't in fact know that.
ellen_fremedon:
So Yellow-Eyed High Camp Master, in the movie, has to be *at least* the 15th.
darthfox:
but in terms of masters we've known, delgado was 1, rotter may or may not have been 2 but let's say he was, ainley/tremas was 3, so yellow-eyes is 4
darthfox:
and thus jacobi is 5 and new guy is 6. [nods in satisfaction]
ellen_fremedon:
Yep yep yep.
ellen_fremedon:
And I think finesseing the weirder bits of the movie (the half-human thing and some of the Eye of Harmony business, and the bizarre abilities of High Camp Master) as regeneration-induced hallucinations means accepting the circumstances of the regeneration as canonical. Which means that the Master's extradition to Skaro following some unknown double-crossing of the Daleks and the Time Lords at once, and his execution, probably need to be taken as canon.
ellen_fremedon:
Which means that while the Master's being eaten by the TARDIS is of dubious canonicity, his stealing a body for a 15th incarnation is on pretty solid ground, too.
ellen_fremedon:
If we're *really* handwaving the movie, we could argue that the first body he stole following his extermination was the Derek Jacobi body, and Yana was Master 15.
ellen_fremedon:
But.
ellen_fremedon:
Even though the Master has evinced an ability to return from seemingly getting burnt up to nothing in a borrowed human body-- Ainley Master went up in smoke and returned with no explanation-- I think it's more reasonable and requires less canon-bending to assume that Master 15 eventually stole a second body, or else reaquired the ability to regenerate and did so, and that Yana was *at least* his 16th incarnation.
ellen_fremedon:
All of which basically means
ellen_fremedon:
that we don't have to worry about the Doctor running out of lives any time soon *g*.
ellen_fremedon:
And I think I'm going to go post all of this in your lj, in case Nick or anyone else wants to chime in.
darthfox [11:10 AM]:
Yes please!

[datlowen.livejournal.com]

It is clear to me that I have not seen this movie in far too long. (In fact, not since it originally aired in, what, 1996?) (Or, maybe, not long enough.)

Anyway, not having seen any of the series since the finale of New Who 2 (and none of Torchwood, although I assume that's a separate issue), this all seems to jive with what I remember.